Posts by Marvin Shilmer

34

If Disfellowshipping pedophiles protects the congregation, what does it do for "Those Outside" they are expelled to?

by Wasanelder Once in

we all know the wt basis for disfellowshipping, (1 corinthians 5:9-13) 9 12 for what do i have to do with judging those outside?

do you not judge those inside, 13 while god judges those outside?

remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.. if removing "the man" is a protection for the congregation and no police are called, what does it say about the witnesses view of the world?

Marvin Shilmer

If removing "the man" is a protection for the congregation and no police are called, what does it say about the Witnesses view of the world? They have no compunction about sending predators out in the world without warning them. The protection of the flock is done by merely banishing them with an option to return, but they can rape in the meantime? Does this show contempt of the Witnesses towards their neighbor? How can you do this and "love your neighbor as yourself"? What is your view of this?

I've said this for years, and will repeat it. It is patently absurd for Watchtower theology to suggest it offers protection to JW children in the presence of a known child molester and at the same time claim to love non-JW neighbors as it loves itself, that is knowing that it has no policy to automatically notify secular authorities of the known child molester.

In a sick ironic twist of things, the people Watchtower policy leaves vulnerable to known pedophiles are the same people Watchtower wants to embrace the religion!!!

15

Elder Exposed as a LIAR at the Australian Royal Commission

by The Searcher in

the lawyer at the australian royal commission (arc) hangs the elder out to dry on his own statements!.

wonderful to see the org's little dictators being subjected to their very own personal judicial committee hearing - but in front of millions, and not in secret!.

from 43 minutes onward.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv8ptogc6k0#t=2607.

Marvin Shilmer

Why does the Watchtower only do the right thing when legally compelled to do so?

When it comes to allegations of sexual molestation of a child (or any allegation of child abuse!) I've often found myself wondering why Watchtower does not come out and actively encourage victims and/or their guardians to report to secular authorities rather than passively say "We don't discourage reporting" and then leave any adult victims and/or guardians alone to decide for themselves whether to report.

When it comes to clergy hearing confessions, I think it best to follow community established standards under law. In some countries the legal systems are so upside down and corrupt that reporting these allegations to secular authorities is considered by the populace as worse than dealing with the issue oneself.

But Watchtower has its elders go beyond hearing confessions. Watchtower has its elders investigate allegations of criminal behavior that it considers as sin, and from there establish an internal judicial tribunal to hear and prosecute if the allegation is deemed to have substance. (Note: Under Watchtower doctrine what is deemed criminal under secular law is not always considered as sin.) This goes beyond what secular authorities tend to think of when constructing statutes designed to deal strictly with confession. It is an abomination that Watchtower would have its appointees tread this ground rather than encourage victims and/or their guardians to report to secular authorities who are better equipped and trained to respond for sake of all children everywhere.

40

Is the two-witness rule really unreasonable?

by stillin in

i'm picturing a situation in which a savvy 12 year old doesn't like the house rules that mom's new husband has put into place.

or something along that line.

i can certainly agree that protection of children is paramount, but who protects the real victim in those cases?

Marvin Shilmer

Is the two-witness rule really unreasonable?

The "two-witness" policy is one we find mimicked in one way or another in judicial systems of every developed society on planet earth. Essentially it means one thing: corroboration. That is to say, if an allegation is made it cannot be acted on punitively unless there is corroboration. So insofar as this single issue is concerned, I think it reasonable.

Yet corroboration is only one of many facets of a robust and fair judiciary, and in relation to children in particular. As pointed out by previous posters, it takes specialized training to investigate allegations of child abuse. This training is not a prerequisite for Watchtower appointed elders. Yet proper training in this field is not only essential to sorting out any fact or fiction of the initial allegation, it is secondarily essential for protection other children who have exposure, ,like the kids next door or down the street.

Watchtower goes on and on about following Jesus, yet the biblical Jesus would have folks love their neighbors as they love their own self. Yet when it comes to allegation of child abuse Watchtower fails to take the simple step of encouraging victims (or their guardians) to report to secular authorities trained to investigate, that is if local law does not require Watchtower appointees to make the report. This gap in Watchtower policy turns advice from the biblical Jesus on its head.

10

DOES "ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD" really mean "Do not murder?"

by TerryWalstrom in

20:28 - jesus' shed blood, thus related to murder.

with the words of augustine firmly in mind we now ask this important question:.

abstaining from blood(shed) preserves life!

Marvin Shilmer

From The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV:

"Sufficient it is, that in this place withal there has been preserved to adultery and fornication the post of their own honour between idolatry and murder: for the interdict upon "blood" we shall understand to be (an interdict) much more upon human blood."--Tertullian, emphasis added

39

Horrible Bosses

by John Aquila in

i just heard this a few minutes ago by a jw friend who is still an elder in my old hall.

the kingdom hall i used to attend and my mom still attends was paid off many years ago and serves about 6 congregations.

one of the english congregations has a lot of financially well of members.

Marvin Shilmer

No elder’s meetings, no judicial meetings at night that last till midnight, no elders meeting after the conventions, no CO meetings, no shepherding calls to worry about, no Sunday talks to prepare, no out of town elder’s schools to prepare. No special meetings to go to. No getting chewed out by the CO. No having to deal with stupid elders.

The pressure of all this really sneaks up on a person. When you let it go you can literally feel the release.

Just the simple act of sitting through ONE day of one of those KM schools for elders was horrendous!!! Insult is added to injury with the realization that the whole thing is one colossal waste of time.

8

Australian child abuse enquiry.

by notoneoftheboys in

lies and more lies.

a question was asked by the court on having someone in the room for moral support with a minor child or frightened girl when being questioned by the elders over allegations of child abuse.

the elders book makes it clear no one else is allowed.

Marvin Shilmer

Current Watchtower policy would allow someone else in the room (parent or guardian) to accompany a minor during a judicial committee meeting.

18

Gay times at Brooklyn Bethel

by oppostate in

leo greenlees and percy chapman have been exposed as practicing a gay lifestyle while serving at the world head quarters of the watchtower religion.. in this photo greenlees is at the left with glen how to his right and then nathan knorr who has chapman to his right.

i've seen this photo before many times.

it's in jim pentons book, but i never noticed greenlees left hand is holding how's right at his bottocks.. quite the gay times at bethel i'd say.. .

Marvin Shilmer

Better look again.

16

Tim Horton's sucks. I thought it was supposed to be good?

by SnakesInTheTower in

jw
friends

so my wife and i went to th yesterday.

the chain started opening stores in the st. louis, mo area about a month ago.

by now the bugs should be worked out.

Marvin Shilmer

I've tried Tim Horton's in the US and Canada. Same trash in both places.

323

Question and answers for fisherperson regardingy time at bethel

by _Morpheus in

so fisherperson sent me a pm asking a bunch of questions re my time at beth hell.

rather than respond in a pm i will post the q/a here as i have nothing to hide.

q:what years did you serve in brooklyn bethel?

Marvin Shilmer

Morning Worshit

Never heard that before. Freaking hilarious!!! So true. So true!

22

Is it Wrong to Doubt or Even Disagree With the GB? The Watchtower Reasoning....

by freemindfade in

this would be a good one for jw apologist who scream and panic with anyone who feels the moral direction of the wt publishing company has gone astray.

a comment at the bible highlights last night blew my mind, here is the article that was referenced.

btw this account always bothered me, remember when it was in a drama?

Marvin Shilmer

Yep! The young prophet from Judah should have seen through the older prophet. If the GB says do this, and its wrong and we go along with it, will the desert god send a lion to eat us???

I've asked many a JW about this over the years. The question boils down to whether the biblical model would have a person support/obey/follow a supposed God-appointee based on the authority the individual supposedly has as a God-appointee without regard for personal sense of right and wrong. The general consensus is that JWs should obey the GB (read: "faithful slave") because it is appointed by God, and if the GB makes a mistake in what it asks of us then we are not guilty for following that mistaken directive/teaching.

Then I ask the JW why the biblical Aaron was removed from high office and suffered premature death if not his tacit support of a mistaken act by Moses.

I ask what this biblical object lesson of Aaron and Moses tells us, if anything.

Then I get deer-in-the-headlight looks in return. Most have no response because they've been conditioned to obey the GB no matter what. They've been conditioned to accept that obedience to the GB equals obedience to God. Yet the biblical episode of Aaron and Moses categorically disputes this.

When it comes to Watchtower theology, at one point Watchtower expressed the idea that in the instance of Moses' mistaken act (at Meribah as I recall) Aaron should have acted to check Moses' actions, and because he did not then Aaron suffered loss of high office and premature death. But under current Watchtower theology for a JW (in high office or not) to act to check some mistaken act by the GB would achieve the threshold value of "apostate". (And, before I get snotty responses, by "mistaken act" I'm being gracious).